What consultants can learn from nonprofit fundraisers, with Mallory Erickson

Mallory Erickson 00:02

Every time I've undersold I feel it in my body, you know? And so I think that's the thing too. Like you want to bring your best stuff to the relationships that you have, and that takes the money movement feeling good on both sides.

Leah Neaderthal 00:20

Welcome to The Smart Gets Paid podcast with me, Leah Neaderthal. I help women land higher paying clients in their independent consulting businesses, but I've never been a salesperson. My background is in corporate marketing, and when I started my first consulting business, I learned pretty quickly that it's about 1000 times harder to sell your own stuff than it is to sell someone else's. So I taught myself how to do it, and I created the sales approach that I now share with my clients so they can feel more comfortable in the sales process. Get more of the right clients and get paid way more for every client contract. So whether your client contracts are $5,000 $100,000 or more, if you want to work with more of the clients you love, do more of the work you love and get paid more than you ever thought you could, then you're in the right place. Let's do it together. Thanks for tuning in, and don't forget to rate, review and share. Hey there. Thanks for joining me in this episode. I hope that wherever you are, wherever you're listening to this, I hope you're having a good week, making some good progress in your business, and also taking some time for you. So when I was running my consulting business, the marketing agency, the clients that my business partner and I were working with were nonprofits and social enterprises. My background was in marketing, and my business partner's background was in nonprofits. And so we thought it was a natural fit to work with nonprofits on their marketing. And so being immersed in the world of nonprofits and working with our comms team, I got a firsthand look at the ins and outs of what it's like to work in a nonprofit, and all of the challenges and personalities and all of the everything that folks in nonprofits deal with, and one day after sitting on a very annoying call that even our client afterwards admitted was was really annoying, I had an idea. I thought, why don't we start a blog about what it's like to work in a nonprofit? It was going to be a simple blog on the Tumblr platform, and the posts would just be a headline and then an animated GIF that was about that headline. And this was many years before memes were a thing like now, you see this sort of construct all the time, but at the time it wasn't really that common, so we made up headlines about a few scenarios we'd seen our clients experience, like when my younger brother's entry level job salary is more than mine after four years at the nonprofit, or when you see a donor who said they were unable to give driving a new BMW, or when you try to talk to the ED about reining in the board, and each headline had an animated GIF underneath it that showed exactly how it feels when that happens. And we called the blog. When you work at a nonprofit, you can actually Google it. It's still up. We put up a few posts, we sent it out to a few people, and then we went to sleep, and in the morning, we woke up to see that it had blown up like views were off the charts in the hundreds of 1000s in just a day. I think it's the only time anything I've done has ever like gone viral, and people started sending us situations that were happening in their daily lives, and we would turn those into posts. And then we started seeing the post reposted everywhere. And I think it took off because we really tapped into a frustration that people felt when they work in nonprofits, for all the reasons that you know, if you've ever worked in a nonprofit. You know all the reasons why, and I really developed an appreciation for how meaningful it is when people feel seen. Since then, I've worked with a lot of consultants who sell into nonprofits. The percentage goes up and down, but it's roughly like 40% or so of my clients are selling into nonprofits, and they're doing communications consulting or storytelling consulting or strategic planning or fundraising consulting or HR consulting with nonprofits as their clients. And it's really interesting working with women who come from nonprofits as their background, and specifically, if you've come from development or fundraising, because part of the methodology I teach you know, part of what we work on naturally, involves getting comfortable talking about money and asking for the business. And nearly every woman I work with has some discomfort around this, just because of, you know, our conditioning around money as women and on and on, with the exception of one group women who come from fundraising. Because when someone says to me, Oh, I come from fundraising like I don't have any difficulty asking for money. That's usually right, like that part they are good on. But there are so many parallels between nonprofit fundraising and getting clients into your consulting business. And the woman I'm talking to in this episode knows those parallels intimately, because in this episode, I'm talking to Mallory Erickson, who. Mallory works with nonprofit fundraisers to help them raise more from the right donors so that they can as Mallory says, Stop hounding people for money. I met Mallory a few years ago, and I think within the first like two minutes of us chatting, we realized that our approaches are so complimentary. She's teaching her clients who are nonprofit fundraisers, how to raise more money, and I'm teaching my clients, who are women, independent consultants, how to get more of the right clients and get paid more. But what we teach and how we approach our work is so similar, like you're gonna hear just how similar it is, so I've invited her on the podcast to talk about how to have a better relationship with money, how to have a values aligned approach to your sales process, and what for profit businesses can learn from nonprofits. So take a listen to my conversation with Mallory Erickson, and at the end, I'll come back and share a lesson that you can apply to your business. So Mallory, I'm so excited that you're here. Thank you for being here.

Mallory Erickson 05:59

Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. I'm so honored to get to be on the show, and I always love talking with you

Leah Neaderthal 06:06

Same here well, so tell the good people. Tell the listeners who you are and what you do.

Mallory Erickson 06:12

So I am an executive coach and fundraising consultant, primarily in the nonprofit sector, although I work with some social entrepreneurs as well, and I really focus coming from and my an entire career in the nonprofit sector, and being someone who became an accidental fundraiser, as so many of us do, I found a lot of resistance when it came to fundraising for myself. And what really shifted that for me was getting trained and certified as an executive coach and getting trained and certified in habit and behavior design and design thinking, and so I have combined those different frameworks into the work that I do with nonprofit leaders. So I focus on fundraising strategy, of course, but more than anything, I really focus on the resistance that we experience, talking about money, asking for money, taking action that relates to things that are really vulnerable or feel personal. And so I kind of geek out on the behavioral science of it all. I call myself a wannabe behavioral scientist, but I love looking at the intersection of, like, who we are as people, and how that impacts the professional, quote, unquote, actions that we're trying to take that are also deeply personal. Yeah, oh

Leah Neaderthal 07:32

my gosh. Okay, and so, so with that background, just for everybody listening, that is why, when you and I first started talking, it was like, it was like a meeting of the minds. You know, we were like, so in sync on the same page. It was like we were sort of philosophy twins. Yes,

Mallory Erickson 07:49

yes. I know we geeked out very quickly. Yes, hard,

Leah Neaderthal 07:53

hard, geek out over here, you know, on on things like asking for money, overcoming resistance, overcoming head trash, building good behaviors so that we can achieve the goal we want, which is not only to help our clients, but to make money for ourselves, right? And it's really interesting I shared with you. You know, when we talked before that, like the women I work with, who are running consulting businesses and across a lot of sectors, nearly everybody feels uncomfortable, like what they would call asking for the business right on asking for money, talking about money, right? Almost to a person, with one big exception, women who come from fundraising, right? So, because asking for money has been their thing. Now, that's not to say that that's been easy. That's the work that you do, right? But so i That's why I'm so excited for you to be here to share what we can learn as people, maybe the for profit sector, from fundraising in the nonprofit sector. So again, we were like, we were like, approach and philosophy twins in your approach and my approach, and I'm just, can you give us a glimpse into what is your this is a big question, but like, what are some of the pillars that you know are the foundation of your work that start to tackle some of these bigger questions about how to talk about money. Think about money, ask for money and, you know, receive money. Yeah. Okay, so

Mallory Erickson 09:25

when I first started to go through my executive coaching program, I got introduced to this concept called the cognitive behavior loop, which is the idea that our thoughts and our beliefs inform how we feel, and then how we feel informs how we ultimately show up. And when I started to look at that loop for me with fundraising, okay, so I feel really uncomfortable asking for money. So what are the thoughts and the beliefs behind that discomfort? Because any action that we're taking, that action is not the problem, it's the thoughts and the beliefs that we hold about what the action means that is the problem. So when I started to look at that for myself with fundraising, what I started to uncover is that I thought that fundraising was asking people to do something they didn't really want to do, but asking them in just the right way that they would say yes, maybe as a favor, maybe add a guilt, or, you know, you had to sort of find these like tricky ways almost, to get people to give you their money. And I felt like it was this exchange of like people giving away something that they didn't really want to in exchange for nothing, right? They were getting nothing for their for their money, and that money was the only thing of value in the conversation that we were having. And they had the value, and I wanted the value, and that set up this really uncomfortable power dynamic. And I'm sharing that background, because when I started to really investigate, like, is that what I think good fundraising is really about? And like, sometimes, you know, when money moves, it does feel sticky and icky, and sometimes when it moves, it feels really good to both people. And so I started to look at like, what is the difference there? When fundraising feels really good, what's happening? What is great fundraising really about? And so the power partners mantra, which is my signature program, is that great fundraising is not an ask, it's an offer, that it's an opportunity, that it's about partnership and collaboration and doing something together. I always say, like, I don't use the word charity in my work because I don't like that term, like, it's for charity. It's like, it's to solve a problem that we both want to see solved. And we come to the table and we come to that conversation, me and the donor with different assets, many assets, money is one asset, and that it is one asset of the donors in that conversation. But I am bringing a lot of value to that conversation too, to that partnership too. I know how to solve the problem that we both want to see solved, and so I think when I when I really like shifted that that like that is what good fundraising is. When money moves and it feels good. It's about mutual mutual benefit. Win, win collaboration, both people's needs being filled and met. That it totally changed how I felt showing up to those conversations, how the donors felt showing up to those conversations, and ultimately, like what we could do together.

Leah Neaderthal 12:21

Oh my gosh. Okay, so just to show you, like how twinning we are. So you just, I just wrote on good fundraising. Good fundraising is not an ask, it's an offer, right? That's what. That's one of your pillars of the power Partners Program, right? If you've worked with me, if you're listening to this, if you worked with me, you know one of my key pillars is because you're offering, not asking, right?

Unknown Speaker 12:45

We are twins. We are twins.

Leah Neaderthal 12:49

You are offering something of value, and that value has a price. And I think what you're saying here is just back to this idea of the power dynamic, right? It feels very uncomfortable to ask for something if you feel like you have nothing, right? If, and it feels like what we call when you're in what we call the one down position, there's a sociolinguist named Deborah, Dr Deborah Tannen, who came up with this concept of called one up, one down, right? It's, it's, it describes who is above in the power dynamic and who is below in the power dynamic, right? If you're one up, obviously you have the power one down, you don't and, and that's why, in my world, in the selling world, that's why this feels so uncomfortable, right? When you because oftentimes consult women, consultants feel like they're in the one down position, right? But what we do there is we sort of re engineer it to be peers, right? To sort of approach people as a peer, meaning, as you said, both people have something of value, right? And it's not, it's not just money that's exchanged. So So when, when people can wrap their heads around, or sort of shift their mindset around, it's an ask, not an offer, in your world, what happens?

Mallory Erickson 14:11

Yeah, so inside power partners, we do something called asset mapping, which I feel like aligns also with something you think about in your in your work, where I basically have them brainstorm all of the different things of value inside their organization, besides just their programs and services. Like nonprofits hold so much value when it comes to thought leadership, their audience, their list, like it's different. Every organization has different assets, different skills of their staff members. So one of the things that I found is that is, I was like, Okay, so, you know, the mantra is, you know, great fundraising is not an ask, it's an offer, but what makes fundraising feel like an offer? And so I kind of had to help figure out, how do I get people over that bridge to really help them feel like that's true, and asset mapping is a big piece. Starting to see all the things of value that they hadn't considered valuable before. Because I think sometimes I mean, first of all, in capitalism in general, like we glorify money over all things, and then inside the nonprofit sector, scarcity mindset is a really big issue. And so those two things colliding means that we sort of have this tunnel vision and these blinders on for like, the money is the only thing of value, so like helping them step out and and look at, look, all these things inside your organization are incredibly valuable. In fact, they're things that funders are looking for, that they don't have, and that they want and that they are looking for. And so what does it look like to come to these conversations with like an asset, first mindset and focus on alignment, who is looking to both accomplish what you're trying to accomplish, and also is looking for the types of assets that your organization, particularly has in the nonprofit space. You know, individuals, corporate funders, foundation funders are all looking for different types of assets. They value different things. What's valuable to a corporate partner is very different. From a partnership perspective, is different than what's valuable to a foundation partner. So helping them start to understand, okay, here are the different types of assets that your organization has. Here's how they align with different types of funders. Sometimes in individual fundraising, that's like funder personas, which is probably similar to like, how your clients think about that and so and then making sure that you're really leading that conversation, focusing on what that offer is, what that what are the assets that you have that that funders been looking for? Yeah,

Leah Neaderthal 16:43

I love that approach of really looking beyond, you know, beyond the money, to really understanding what is of value. There's a version of that that we do in our work on two levels. The first is, you know, understanding what value is provided in the sense that a lot of women I work with have in the past said, you know, the value is I come in and I do the thing right, so understanding, you know, the value isn't that I'll just do the thing, it's these are all the ways that your business will be different and better as a result of Our work together. And when you can articulate that it's not just like I come and do the thing and you just pay me to do the thing, right, it really changes how women, how my clients, think about their own value, right? And then we work that into some of the pricing and the way we structure the work, because we think about, how can we bring value to the to the client in in the scope of work that so it that isn't just you showing up and, you know, counting your hours, right? So ways to increase the both actual value and the perceived value, is another way we do that. But yes, I mean, you have to get creative, because if we just go based on what we know, it's just going to be like, let's just talk money and hours. And in your world, you know, money and money for, you know, charity, quote, unquote.

Mallory Erickson 18:11

Well, it's so similar what you're saying to how I think the a lot of nonprofits think about corporate sponsorship. Like, a lot of time when nonprofits are thinking about corporate sponsorship, they're like, well, the cost of this thing is blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, but the cost, we're not talking about costs. We're talking about value. Sponsorship benefits is about value. And so you know, low balling, having your top sponsorship tier, like I am always like, take your top sponsorship tier if you're listening to this and your nonprofit fundraiser, and please multiply it by five or 10, because that top sponsorship tier is what indicates the value of all of the assets of your organization. You're saying brand alignment with us, the top spot with us is worth this amount. And when a nonprofit has like a $10,000 top sponsorship level. It like complete. It doesn't matter how much it costs to print the logos on all the pamphlets. It completely devalues what it means to be in partnership with them and the value that you're truly providing through those marketing assets. Yeah,

Leah Neaderthal 19:16

oh my gosh. In our world, we would call that anchoring, right? What anchors the price. And if you anchor, if your top thing is $10,000 like you have anchored the price at $10,000 right? But if your top thing is 5075, what have you? You have anchored the price there and and the way we price our work communicates the value of our work. So what's another what's another pillar of your work that it's critical for people to understand?

Mallory Erickson 19:47

So you actually sort of said it before, which is so I say that the power partners formula is an in is an alignment first methodology, not a money first methodology. And. I think what that means is that, and I have found this in my work as a consultant, right like, what I want to figure out first is like, is this the right client for me? Are we aligned? Will it be enjoyable to work together? Will they get a lot out of our relationship because they're really looking for the type of relationship and the type of services that I truly provide, and I don't focus at all on the money of that exchange in the beginning, of trying to figure that out, that is a piece of it, absolutely, and people have to, you know, it has to meet people where they're at or or what they're capable of, but, but I think, like, when we are focused on the money, and particularly in fundraising, like, you know, people get qualified as leads. And I'm sure there's a way that this happens in consulting that I'm just not sophisticated enough for, but they get sort of qualified as leads, and then we have, like, our eye on the prize of like, this person has the capacity to give $50,000 or this person has the capacity to give $100,000 and we shape shift ourselves to make it work, because we're so blinded by the money. And so I really a huge pillar of my work is like alignment first, like that is the first thing you are trying to figure out in relationship with someone, and that matters so much more, because not all money is created equal. And the reality is is a funder can give you $50,000 and it's going to ring your organization dry in terms of the resources to deal with that funder and the impact that's going to have on your organization, the mission drift, the like, supplemental funding you're going to have to come up with to actually make it work, like all the things, and then $50,000 from the right funder is like capacity. And so I think it's like, it's so important to be focused on, on that alignment piece above everything else.

Leah Neaderthal 22:01

Oh my gosh, you're so right. And you guys, what you can't see happening while Mallory's talking is that, like, every 90 seconds or so, she says something, and I, like, silently, just point both fingers at her, because I'm like, Oh my God, you're so spot on. A lot of finger pointing over here, that's like my silent, silent podcast recording. Like, yes, yes. Okay, I love what you said here around alignment and because, you know, and again, twinning, right? There's a phrase that is really important for the women I work with to understand, which is, some money is expensive, right? Some money is expensive. That's exactly how I say it, and what it means is exactly what you said, some money, like in our world, you might take on a client because you it looks good on paper, or you need the money, or you don't have anything else in your pipeline, or maybe, you know, it's like you're like you're not. It's not gonna be that much work. First of all, it's never not that much work, right? And it can be expensive in terms of your time, so that it's not really profitable. You're spending too much time on it, you're over delivering it can be expensive based on your mental health. I mean, how many clients, if you're listening to this, how have you ever taken on a client that stressed you out, or one downed you or made you doubt. Do you know your your skills? And so when you think about alignment first, you know, not only do they have the problem I solve, but do I enjoy talking to them. How are they showing up in the sales process? Am I taking this on because I want it and I can do a great job and it furthers my business and my objectives, or am I taking it on because, like, I need it? And you know, all money is money, which we know it's not

Mallory Erickson 23:57

okay. Now I'm pointing because I think, I mean, this is so important for people to understand, and it has been, you know, a big learning curve, like in my business, to or to, like, have the restraint sometimes to say, like, Okay, I'm not enjoying the sales process. I am definitely not going to enjoy working with this person. And I just feel like so much more and more, I just had this experience where somebody wanted to work with me one on one, around something. They were, you know, being they were extremely skeptical in our conversations. And they sent me, I do some asynchronous video back and forth with folks and and the person sent me a video that was basically like, prove your value to me. It's like, prove to me how you're going to be valuable to me, because I'm already doing blank, blank, blank, which it sounds like is all you would be offering. So prove to me how you would be more valuable than what I'm already doing. And I sent a video message back that basically was like, Listen, you know, it sounds to me like you're really committed to your beliefs around. On the fact that you have already covered all of the bases that I cover in my work, and I'm not looking at how exactly you did all those things, so I can't and I'm not going to audit your previous work, so I can't speak to exactly whether or not it is how I would train you to do it or coach you to do it, but I'm not going to, like, argue with your position here. And so I think, you know, it's best that you find somebody to work with that you are really convinced is going to add the value you're looking for to your organization. And you know, of course, the person came back and was like, Okay, we need to know, I want to work together. And but I was just like, I that that's not my job is not to convince you of my worth and and I'm not going to play, you know, I'm not going to play that game, and I'm also not going to spend an entire contract working to overcome your beliefs about me. And so I think just like starting to know those things and have the confidence to let people go from the sales process really easily, has just completely changed my business.

Leah Neaderthal 26:14

Oh my gosh, you guys, if you I think you should pause, rewind, listen to that again and write it down, because that's an I just love that framing of a way to assert yourself without defending yourself. And, you know, give them the out. Anybody has the right to choose, anybody to work with. It doesn't have to be you right totally and you're right. I mean, if you had gone ahead with that. Yeah, that money would have been really expensive, you know? I mean another way, another way for for every listening that you can sort of have that conversation. And a way that I've used in the past is it sounds like you're doing XYZ, or it sounds like you feel like you're doing XYZ. Why do you need me? And what that does. It does a few things. It it pauses the conversation right now we're talking about our relationship. It also gives you great data, like, why do they need you, you know, and it brings the focus back on, on potentially working together, right, and it keeps the focus on the gaps. Not you know what they're already doing right. There may be things that they're doing right. You need to know where. You know why they're coming to you. So two different approaches here, but both useful in you know, when it feels like the money could be expensive. I loved that. So what else about your approach do you think is really critical to understand to be to be comfortable asking for money? Yeah. So

Mallory Erickson 27:55

this actually piggybacks really well on what we were just talking about, in terms of, you know, how you navigate sometimes those uncomfortable conversations with folks. And I think one of the things, well, I'll share sort of two things in one here. One is that there's a lot of things, my guess is that overlap in our work when it comes to ghosting and rejection and things like that. And so I, you know, study a lot around our nervous system, what happens inside our brains and our bodies when we deal with things like getting ghosted or getting rejected. And one big pillar of my work, and the reason why I think executive coaching is so critical to be integrated into fundraising is because when those things happen, it makes perfect sense that we are naturally dysregulated. And I think sometimes we try to get ourselves, try to make ourselves get over it too quickly, when really we need to like rest and heal from those experiences and use tools and strategies to be able to come back into our body, come back into our confidence. So

Leah Neaderthal 29:07

just let's pause for a sec. How are you defining for everybody here? How are you defining naturally dysregulated?

Mallory Erickson 29:14

So I'm thinking about it in terms of when our nervous system starts to go into a sympathetic nervous system state. So essentially, stress hormones start to get released. They cause anxiety. They stress. We experience that often as like spiraling in our brain, that sort of chatter, rumination we can feel in our body, just this sense of dis ease, sort of like that. Something feels wrong. We feel activated. Some people say triggered, right? So we've gone from being in a grounded, comfortable state to something feeling uncomfortable, and that shows up in our brain and our body. That's that's how I think about it. And you know, when we spend too much time in a dysregulated state like that, or we spend too much time in our sympathetic nervous system, that's what leads to burnout, that's what leads to chronic stress states and the paralysis that we feel sometimes. And so there's lots of different ways this shows up, and particularly for women around perfectionism. And you know, we could go down the whole rabbit hole of things, but all to say that there's a lot of studies that have demonstrated how things that can naturally dysregulate us are like a sense of losing our belonging. When we lose our sense of belonging, our bodies and our brains start to freak out. We're like, am I here? Do you see me? Do I matter? And there have been these really, like heartbreaking studies actually done with babies, where the mom is engaging with the baby and all of a sudden goes like cold faced and stops showing emotion and kind of like responding, and the baby starts to freak out, like the baby is not getting I know it's like, I know it literally breaks my heart, but the baby is like, not being validated. And so these things we experience when we feel like we've put our value on the line, when we feel like our self worth is tied up in it, and then we get ghosted by it by a potential client. We feel just like that baby does. We're like, wait, wait, wait, what did I do wrong? Like, do you see me? Did you get my email? Like, what happened? And we start to really, you know, our energy shifts and we it creates a lot of other limiting beliefs that impacts our behavior with other potential clients we show up on that next call totally different if we don't give ourselves time to process and deal with the experience that we had. And so a huge pillar of my work is like creating space for that very real piece of any type of job that involves asking. And

Leah Neaderthal 32:07

so when you create space, what has to happen in that space? Or what should what types of things should we be thinking about in that space? Yeah,

Mallory Erickson 32:14

so there are tons of different tools that can be used to down regulate your nervous system. And so there's this incredible psychologist, Britt Frank, who wrote the book called The Science of stuck. And she gives a number of tools in that book, things like acknowledging and validating how you feel in that moment. You know, we think saying, Oh, just get over it, or you shouldn't be so sensitive, or you shouldn't take that so seriously that we're just gonna, like, tough love ourselves out of it. But actually, it's scientifically proven that when we acknowledge and validate how we feel, we actually start to calm ourselves down. Even saying a sentence like that makes sense like that. It makes sense that I feel bad right now, like it makes sense that that hurt my feelings. I thought we had a connection, and then that happened like it makes perfect sense that this is stirring up some stuff for me, and we give ourselves that space we can use something Dr Ethan Cross talks about something called distant self talk, which is using our own first name to pull ourselves kind of out of the drama of the situation, and give us a more macro lens. So being able to say like you know how to move through something hard, like this Mallory, or like Mallory, you can do this, Mallory, you can still show up to this next conversation confidently. When we own when we use our own first name, we sort of zoom out. He wrote this incredible book chatter. There's tons of strategies in there, everything from like getting up, walking outside, having a moment of awe, anything that sort of like helps us zoom out, zoom back, because those moments can feel just so all encompassing. And then any like somatic work, you know that helps you, if you feel more connected to doing things with your body, you know, shaking out different limbs, there's tapping exercises. I mean, the list goes on and on. And so if you're curious about this, I would just like Google like strategies to down regulate your nervous system. Start to play around, see what feels good and what works for you. And then, you know, these don't have to be, like, huge time intensive things, but taking that beat and giving your brain and your body some space and, like, acknowledging that that thing happened and it didn't feel good is really important,

Leah Neaderthal 34:35

yeah, oh my gosh. I mean, this happens in our work all the time, right? Clients don't get back to you, or they don't get get back to you as quickly as you would like. Or they, you know, they just ghost you, or, you know, the project changes, or whatever, right? They don't write back to your email. I mean this, of course, I mean, it's the nature of the work. It happens all the time, and the. What you said is so important about just first two things. First, this is in our biology, right? You know, why can't you as a woman in your 30s, 40s, 50s, you know, just get over it, right? Because it's in our like, because you're experiencing the same thing as an infant. You know, it was there from the beginning, and no amount of, like, pushing through, or, you know, Instagram affirmations is gonna solve it, right? So just like, acknowledge that, and you know what you're saying around giving yourself some space, right? Because, because, if not, what typically happens, of course, is that we Spiral out. There's some there's something wrong with me. I don't know what I'm doing. They must have seen through me. They must have realized that I can't do shit and I can't do what I say I can. They must have, you know, all the imposter syndrome stuff. And so the way we quiet that is to be quiet, right? Not to push,

Mallory Erickson 36:05

yeah, and you know, there's so much like, especially for women, biologically, that we've been programmed around to create harmony in society and in community, and so whenever we feel like we've done something that maybe disrupted the harmony of a relationship, these things go wild, and it's just our brain and our body's desire to keep us safe, and it doesn't know the difference between like, a bear is going to eat us in the woods, or we're going to be like, kicked out of our wandering tribe, versus like, okay, that client wasn't a great fit, and that's okay. It's just our brain being like, Wait, fix it, you know? And that's where all of our like, people pleasing stuff comes from. And so it's like, all these things, the self doubt, the imposter syndrome, they're there, you know, we don't need them. They're there with good intentions, you know, to try to keep us safe. And we just have to remind ourselves, like, yeah, I am safe. Like, thank you so much. That's what I say to my imposter syndrome that comes up. Like, thank you so much for trying to keep me safe, but I don't need you, and I feel good about this risk or visibility or whatever it is that I've decided to take on. Yeah,

Leah Neaderthal 37:20

yeah. I love that. I love that, like just, you know, reassuring self talk. So obviously, there are so many parallels in our work. And I think you know, another thing that you and I have talked about is the fact that you know, in the nonprofit space, it's customary to hear messages that nonprofits should be like more like for profit companies, right? I'm sure everyone who works in a nonprofit is so sick of hearing that. And, you know, and when I ran my consulting business, all of our clients were nonprofits or social enterprises, and everyone was sick of hearing that, you know, the from the clients I was talking to. And I think there's a lot that for profit businesses can learn from nonprofits. And so I'm curious to know, what do you think that women running consulting businesses can learn from nonprofits? Ooh, that

Mallory Erickson 38:12

is such a good question. I mean, I think there's so much that can be learned from nonprofits in terms of community building, brand building, relationship building. And I do think like what it looks like to to build value aligned relationships, you know, and not that I've shared, of course, that fundraisers and in nonprofits, it's easy to get blinded by the money too. But I think what nonprofits really demonstrate is what it's like to build community around value alignment. And I also think for folks who are having trouble seeing value in their work, I think if you look at you know why donors give, for example, and you realize you start to see those pieces that you were talking about before, like all of the different value that that your folks are providing to their clients that go well Beyond the hours that they're that they're working or that they're particularly, you know, doing some task. People donate to organizations because it validates their identity, because they feel a sense of belonging to that group, because it makes them feel good and a part of something bigger than themselves. It's a very important part of the fabric of who they are. Those are all these intangibles that you can't be transactional and there's so much about I think you know consultants relationships with their clients that are the same way, like how you make your clients feel. Deal every time you're on a phone call with them. There is no price tag for that, you know. And so there, I think, like the the way that donor relationships are built with nonprofits, like, there's a lot to that can be recognized in terms of what it looks like when those are done well, to really build transformational relationships that are not about kind of like line items and check boxes.

Leah Neaderthal 40:28

Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, I love, I love the philosophy here, because, you know, I think that one of the things that we talk about in our work is you teach people how to treat you, and you teach people how to treat you, starting starting in the sales process, and you also start to teach people what it will be like to work with you. And so if you can use that as a way to build a relationship, and I love what you're saying, how do clients feel when they're on the phone with you? Right? I think it's, it's more powerful than you think, and it's an asset that you have right now. So you and I have talked about this idea that if you are selling your services to nonprofits, you can't charge very much, right? And you know it, I've gotten some pushback on this from women who work in nonprofit and are very committed to this idea that you just can't charge very much. Now, of course, I've seen that disproven time and time again, but it's still sort of in the water. So, so what's your thought on this? You know, if you sell your services to nonprofits, you can't charge very much, true or false? Yeah. So

Mallory Erickson 41:41

this is a little bit of a complicated question, because first of all, I think very much is so subjective. What I'll say is I charge probably eight times more than I did when I started my consulting practice, and I think I really did believe I couldn't charge very much when I first started, and today, I hear often from people you're expensive, to which my response is, yes. Brand Yes, you know, and so I think, and I'm much less expensive than consultants who do similar work in different industries. So I think there's a huge range of what can be charged inside the nonprofit sector. There's absolutely a market for high ticket, whatever that term is, you know, services, and for being able to charge large retainer amounts or large coaching amounts. I think for me, I've landed more in the middle of probably, like the global spectrum, because I particularly want to work with small to mid sized nonprofits. And so I think if my prices were seen by larger nonprofits, I probably wouldn't hear I'm expensive that often. But because I am, you know, I have designed my market around smaller to mid sized nonprofits, and so first of all, like, just for everyone who's listening to that, that is relative, and it's likely going to be relative to, like, what you've seen, or what you've practiced, you know, doing, or maybe how you've internalized people's response. I heard that I was expensive when I was charging $75 an hour for my executive coaching work. So you're always going to get pushback. I've heard that power partners is expensive, which is $99 a month for a tremendous amount. So I think just one recognizing that you have to decide first of all what works for you, and you absolutely can charge whatever you want to, and that market exists. And I think it's more about figuring out, you know, what's the sweet spot for the types of organizations in the nonprofit sector that you want to work with, and where does that meet what you want to be charging for your services, and then design around that piece.

Leah Neaderthal 44:04

Absolutely, I love that. It's I love that. Thank you for sharing those numbers too. Because so many people think that because somebody says they're expensive, that means they've done something wrong. That means they're they actually are priced too high. But guess what? You can be somebody's going to think you're expensive at $75 and somebody is going to think you're going to think you're expensive at 7500 and somebody's going to think you're expensive at 75,000 right? And so just because you're expensive, you know, it's to your answer, yes, okay,

Mallory Erickson 44:35

right? I mean, it sounds like I feel expensive to you, you know, is sort of like my beyond just the Yes, which is like, I look my goal in my business has not been to be the cheapest service provider around I'm not in a race to the bottom. And I feel like to this really goes to your point around the value. Ellen. Right? Like, I think when people try to one hour with me, you're going to go a lot farther than you will in one hour with another person. And so you might be trying to compare our hourly rate side by side, but the impact and the value of the work is is really different. And so I I stand by that. And I think, you know, you helping people figure out all of the different things of value that they're providing in their services that should be compensated for is just such a huge thing that I wish I had when I started, absolutely,

Leah Neaderthal 45:41

I know me too, and I think you know what you're saying about your pricing. You can charge what you have, what you want, and your price comes from you, right? I mean, those are two of again, twinning, right? We have six, five pricing principles, and those are two of them. Basically, you can charge whatever you want. Somebody is just going to charge way more than you, and somebody is doing what you do on Fiverr for like $10 right? So you can charge whatever you want, and your price comes from you. Your price comes from what is the value? It comes from the value that you deliver. It comes from your financial commitments. You know, it comes somebody, somebody I was talking to, someone once, who was saying, like, another consultant in my space charges, you know, x, right? And honestly, I can't even, I can't remember if that was lower or higher, but it's like, that's actually the reason why they price so, oh, it must have been lower, because, you know, the woman I was talking to was, like, worried that she was overcharging, right? And, and I was like, that. The the other factors that went into that person pricing the work the way they did, those are actually none of your business, right? You don't know what their mortgage is. We don't know what their kids are doing. You don't know. You know, are they supporting their parents? You don't know what sort of death they have. You don't know. Do they know anything about pricing whatsoever, right? And so all we can do is decide our prices that fit for what supports us in our life.

Mallory Erickson 47:17

You know, I think it's such an important point, because, and what it's worth to you to do that thing, like my speaking rate when I have to travel is so much higher than virtual speaking. And people probably think like that. Does it like that? Feels like very, very imbalanced. But you know what? I have to leave my kids and my husband, and that is, I'm not going to do that for a discounted rate, because the cost to me is so much higher, and I the the way I really learned about pricing. This a tiny little anecdote, but was, there was a service that I used to provide that I decided I really didn't want to do anymore. But I was like, what I asked myself, I was like, what at what price would I want to do it like I was feeling a lot of resistance around the contracts that I had. And I was like, Okay, I feel like I should just take that off, but it was something that I got a lot of inquiries about. And so I was like, okay, at what price would I, would I do that and feel good about it? And it would feel like, okay, because the energy that it took and the scheduling and all the things, and so I was like, Okay, three times the amount that I had been charging. And I was like, and if no one goes for it, like, no problem, because I don't really want to do it, insane. It started to convert, first of all, at, like, almost 100% where I probably, like, closed it before it fifth, at 50% which was wild, like, all of a sudden, increasing the price, like, the value, the perceived value, like, all these things changed. And so, yeah, I think, like, pricing is personal. And yeah, so I love the way you talk about it. You

Leah Neaderthal 48:56

know, it's so funny there. What's it worth for you? This is just a total aside, but I went down like a YouTube rabbit hole. And I was watching a video that, anyway, I started getting down this rabbit hole about, you know, that phrase like, I won't get out of bed for, you know, less than 20,000 or I won't get out of bed for 50,000 or whatever, right? I won't get out of bed. That phrase I won't get out of bed for. Do you know where that came from?

Mallory Erickson 49:24

I Okay, this is so funny, because someone just told me this recently. Was it Naomi Campbell?

Leah Neaderthal 49:29

It was Linda Evangelista and Christy Turlington. Do you remember, like, 90s, 90s supermodels? Yes, yeah. I mean Naomi Campbell's like, in the mix, right? Okay, yes, yes, yes, yes. That was the genesis of that. They said, We won't, we don't get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day. And I love that, that it wasn't just some like, you know, business icon, like, middle aged white guy, business icon guy. It was like two young supermodels who knew. Power. Yeah,

Mallory Erickson 50:04

I love that. And I think it's like knowing your power, knowing your worth, and knowing you don't want to walk into any relationship feeling resentful or resistance to starting that contract. And every time I've, you know, so under sold, I feel it in my body, you know. And so I think that's the thing too. Like you want to bring your best stuff to the relationships that you have, and that takes the money movement feeling good on both sides, absolutely.

Leah Neaderthal 50:33

So Mallory, I feel like I could talk about this stuff with you for, you know, hours and hours. Well. So Mallory, where can people find you?

Mallory Erickson 50:41

Yes, you can find me over at Mallory erickson.com, or on Instagram, underscore Mallory Erickson or on LinkedIn, and connect with me. Let me know you heard this episode, and I'm always interested in connecting with other consultants, thought leaders in this space, so I could talk to you forever, too, and I'm just so grateful to have gotten to have this conversation. Thanks

Leah Neaderthal 51:04

so much for being here. Oh my gosh, there are so many great nuggets in our conversation. And if anything Mallory shared spoke to you, please reach out to her on Instagram or LinkedIn and let her know. So as always, there are so many directions we could go with this conversation, and I want to just pull out one thread and share something that you can apply to your business. There's one big thing I want to hit home, and it's around when clients say you're too expensive. You heard us talk about it just now, and it's so important that I just want to shine a light on it here. In your experience running a business, some clients will tell you that you're expensive. That's their right. And in fact, if nobody ever tells you you're expensive, that's a problem. But when somebody says you're too expensive, it can make you feel like you've done something wrong. You think maybe I am too expensive. But when someone tells you that you're too expensive, it only means you're too expensive for them, and that is 100% their right to not be able to afford you or to not want to pay that much. But it doesn't mean that you're too expensive for everyone. You heard me say it in my conversation with Mallory, there are companies charging 10 times what you do for the work that you're doing, and there are people charging $10 an hour on Fiverr, and all you can do is two things. First, you can set the price based on the value to the client, and the price that works for you and your financial goals, because your price comes from you. And the second thing you can do is talk about price upfront with the client. This is why it is so important to talk about price upfront, like even in that first call, it's why it's part of my system, and you learn it in my program, because you have to know pretty early on if you and the client are in the same ballpark on price, like, if you typically charge $50,000 for this work, and they think it's going to cost $10,000 you need to know that. And you can save yourself so much time and work and heartache, and if you're not in the same ballpark on price, it doesn't mean that you're expensive. It just means that they're not your client, no matter how lovely your proposal is or how much you hit it off in the conversation, because in consulting, like in nonprofit fundraising, it's about alignment, and if you're not aligned, you need to know that so that you can spend your time and energy getting and working with the clients where you're aligned. You.

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