From relying on a “whale” client to building a diverse client base, with Cara Barnes

Cara Barnes 0:02

Leah, so that first month that I started, I lost my whale client, and I was really screwed. I was like, Oh, the worst fear I had actually happened.

Leah Neaderthal 0:13

Welcome to the Smart Gets Paid podcast with me, Leah Neaderthal, I help women land higher paying clients in their independent consulting businesses, but I've never been a salesperson. My background is in corporate marketing, and when I started my first consulting business, I learned pretty quickly that it's about 1000 times harder to sell your own stuff than it is to sell someone else's. So I taught myself how to do it, and I created the sales approach that I now share with my clients so they can feel more comfortable in the sales process, get more of the right clients and get paid way more for every client contract. So whether your client contracts are $5,000 $100,000 or more, if you want to work with more of the clients you love, do more of the work you love, and get paid more than you ever thought you could, then you're in the right place. Let's do it together. Thanks for tuning in, and don't forget to rate, review and share.

Leah Neaderthal 1:07

Hey there, Leah here, and thanks for tuning in. I hope that wherever you're listening to this, wherever you are right now, you're having a great week, making some good progress in your business and taking some time for you.

Leah Neaderthal 1:19

All right, so picture it. It's the early 2000s say like 2008 to 2015 and I was a young woman, you know, living the dream in my career in the advertising world. And if it was Sunday night, there was one place you can find me on my couch glued to the TV watching a show that I was obsessed with, Mad Men. Did you watch Mad Men? If you watched it, you know it was so good. It was about an advertising agency in the 60s and all the drama that came with that industry. And that time, I loved that show. I still do. And in the show, the agency was called Sterling Cooper. And Sterling Cooper had a client that was lucky strike cigarettes, okay, and Lucky Strike was its biggest client, like, by far, biggest client by far. I actually did some digging on Reddit, and I discovered that they actually do say that Lucky Strike accounted for 71%of the Sterling Cooper business, and for an advertising agency, or really any business. I mean, that's really risky, and because Lucky Strike was its biggest source of income, biggest source of revenue, a lot of the client drama in the show actually stemmed from the fact that Lucky Strike sort of like, forgive the expression, but it was like the 60s. It sort of had them by the balls. You know, the client made demands, and Don Draper and the team just had to sort of go with it. They could squash, and regularly did squash the ideas that the team came up with. They even got Sterling and Cooper's best art director fired the very closeted Sal Romano. And they can do that because Lucky Strike accounted for so much of the business they were, you know, as we call it, their whale client. Now, a whale client is a large client or a large customer that provides a significant portion of a company's revenue or company's business. And the phrase actually comes from gambling, where a whale air quotes whale is a name for a wealthy, high stakes gambler.

Leah Neaderthal 3:30

And I was thinking about Mad Men and Lucky Strike as I was editing this episode, because in this episode, I'm talking to a woman who found herself in a similar situation, and it's what she did next that really turned things around and helped her diversify her client base, and that's what you're gonna hear in this episode. So today I'm talking to Kara Barnes, who does fractional HR work in her company called good karma consulting. And as you're gonna hear, Kara's business appeared to be doing well, you know, on the surface, but Kara knew that it was sort of balancing on the head of a pin, and that's because just about all of her work came from one client, her whale client, and that was affecting how she worked with her client, how they treated her, and how she felt about herself as a business owner. And she knew that being reliant on that one client was a risky move, so she knew that she needed to get other clients and have a more diversified client base, so that she was safer, so her revenue was more secure, and she wasn't just beholden to this one client.

Leah Neaderthal 4:35

So in this episode, you hear the decisions that Kara made that helped her get more and different clients. You'll hear how she developed even how she's working with those clients. You're going to hear the very time sensitive reason why she needed to figure this out, and you'll hear how she's grown her business and how she's giving back. Now, the conversation you're going to hear actually took place inside the academy. It's a love seat call and love seats are our version of hot seats. They're a live session for the community, where I invite Academy members to share behind the scenes in their business. You know what's worked, what hasn't, and what we can all learn from them? Love seats happen every month, and this month, I had invited Kara to be our love seat guest. So take a listen to my conversation with Cara Barnes, and at the end, I'll come back and share a lesson that you can apply to your business, and then hopefully someday soon, you'll partner with us to help you build your consulting business, and you'll come back on the podcast and share your story. Enjoy.

Leah Neaderthal 5:33

You guys. Gave a warm welcome to Cara. Cara, I'm so glad that you are here. I'm so excited for our conversation. Cara, thanks for being here.

Cara Barnes 5:41

Thank you, and I apologize. I'm so sorry for being late. I hate being late to things.

Leah Neaderthal 5:47

It's totally okay. This is This is life, right? So we're just going to have a friendly conversation. Everyone's here to learn from you what's working your business, maybe what hasn't worked in your business, where you are now, and some of the things that have helped you get there. First, Cara, just really quick Introduce yourself. Okay, yeah, I am Cara Barnes. I'm a fractional HR and founder of good karma consulting. And I help small nonprofits and startups build their HR foundation so that they can get the best out of their people.

Leah Neaderthal 6:20

Nice, look at just very nice. Okay, so, Cara, take us back to what was your situation in your business when we started working together? Like, like, what were, you know, two or three problems that that needed to be solved, right? I my gosh, Leah, I feel like we've been working together for years, but it's only been, like, a little over a year. So face value, surface level, I was thinking about this. This is why I said yes to going this. Markets paid.

Cara Barnes 6:48

One of them was because I had a whale client who had, like, kind of, like, relied everything on, and I was really nervous if I lost client, then that just goes my business. And it didn't have enough like coming in to be able to feel safe on that. So that's, like, one of the bigger, biggest issues. Second is, like, I'm in, like, what we call like, the messy middle, where I couldn't figure out why I was kept on getting, like, random referrals that wasn't really my business. And like, people are like, this is what you do, right? And they had, like, no clue. There was no messaging and and to be fair, it was because I was wanting to be everything to everybody. So like, that was a problem and was not sustainable. And it's hard to get clients that way when you yourself don't really know what your focus is and your niche is. That was like a problem, and overall, I was so exhausted. I remember, I remember at the time I was working crazy hours, because when you're like, working your business, it's hard to actually work on clients and then also work on on your business. So those are like the biggest, like three big problems I had before starting with you. Leah, yeah. I mean, you guys, as you're listening to this, does any of this sound familiar? Like what might be going on? Tell us in the chat,

Cara Barnes 8:09

having a whale client. I mean, the clients that pay the big bucks, those are great. But when you are, when you're reliant on that, how did that affect your business at the time. I mean, I was like, acting like their employee rather than a consultant. That is strategic, because I was so desperate, like, I didn't realize this is like, subconscious, right, that I was acting like their employee, and they treated me a set so you you put out what you want, how you want to be treated, and you communicate that with your clients. And I was in every aspect of my business. I was acting like very like, thank you so much for allowing me to work with you kind of like mentality and so that really, yeah, it wasn't great for my self esteem, and it wasn't great for my income, because they were, they weren't getting charged a lot. I was, I was charging them really, like, barely nothing. And I was like, reliant on that so and I couldn't, I didn't have time to, like, look for other clients, because I was so bogged down with the work with this existing client. So it was like, this weird. This was like, this is not sustainable. And but yet I was also like, but I'm profitable. I'm like, you know, I'm getting money in so, like, I'm outside looking at everybody's like, car, you're so successful because you're doing so well. Your business is a flow and, you know? And like, I was riding off of that. I have my own business, you know, kind of thing. But there was definitely things underneath that. It was like, This is not what I want. Yeah, was it? Was there every moment. Because I've, I've heard this from people. I've also, you know, felt this at different points where everyone's like, you're, you know, you're doing so great, you're killing it, and you're almost like, if you only knew, you know, or like, you have some sort of dirty little secret that that your whole business was riding on this one client, right? You know, yeah, that's.

Cara Barnes 10:00

So true. It felt like I felt very lonely too. I remember feeling like I'm used, I'm a social person, and started my own business. There wasn't anybody who can help me, like there wasn't anybody that knew what I was going through, because nobody else started their own business or and if I try to get advice from other people, they just didn't get it, because they didn't have their own business, they don't want their consulting company, and they couldn't really help me, you know? So I felt very lonely and very like, kind of lost into like, why don't you know how I know there's a problem, but I don't even know how to fix this. I don't know how to get out of the situation. Like, ultimately wanted, and what I figured out through the program is like, so that was surface level. I mean, those are real problems, right? But like, deep down, I think what I really wanted was I wanted to, like, work in my zone of genius, like, like, I wanted to do the work that I was really good at, and I was really, like, I could do and, like, not even care, like, how much I get paid, I might obviously do care. So I wanted to create my own schedule. I wanted to work with people that actually respected me, who thought of me as a thought leader, and who, like, valued my advice, and I wanted to make a lot of money doing it. So that was, like, the real reason. Yeah, no shame in that. I mean, that's what we're here for, right?

Leah Neaderthal 11:18

So bring us up to speed now

Cara Barnes 11:21

and tell us how things are right now and then. What we're going to do is, how did you get here? Like, what were the things, what were the game changers that helped you get here? So, so bring us up to speed, like, what were some results that you've seen, you know, in the business, like, like, what's changed for the better? Well, definitely don't have a real client anymore. I have, like, a more diversified client. So I lose one or two. It doesn't like, break the bank, and so I'm not dependent on just one client. And that helps a lot.

Cara Barnes 11:48

I have very specific niche packages that I offer now that I don't like cut and change, and the business also like, that's kind of like how it got there. But the business right now, I have five employees, which is insane to me. Think about it. We've grown three times my gross income since I first started. We have like, prospects and referrals coming in every two days, like I'm getting a referral, or people reaching out. It's like, my pipe is, like, growing pretty rapidly, and now it's now it's a new challenge of, like, Okay, how do we put them on a wait list and then get them scheduled for like, future work? I mean, it feels really good. I'm also creating my own schedule. And I, like, figured out how to, like, to have my nanny in the mornings and then like, the rest of the afternoon, I could really just dedicate my time to my son. And that's, like, was, like, the main reason why I even started my own business is I wanted to, like, have some freedom and, like, some flexibility and, like, downtime with my family, and I have that now, and, like, I don't take meetings on Fridays. That was like, another goal. So, yeah, I'm, I'm really kind of writing it right now. Like, I'm very excited to see how strong the karma is. And this is where we're at now. This is where, yeah,

Cara Barnes 13:08

and it feels good talking about it, yeah. Oh my god, you guys, do you

Cara Barnes 13:15

This is amazing. This is amazing, yeah, well, and it's funny, because I remember when you and I first started talking, and you were like, I we're going to try to get pregnant this year, yeah. And I was like, great. This is the time to, you know, to sort of focus on this business, and we're going to get to that in a second. And now, you know, fast forward. Not only is the business thriving, but you have time to spend, you know, with your son, and you also have support as well. I mean, you remind me that I was gonna say, like, I was really in a down place where we were trying to conceive for years, and we realized, like, we need help, so we're gonna go through IVF. And anybody who's gone through IVF now, like, it's like, you have to have a flexible schedule. And I knew I couldn't do it with, like, my workload. There was just no way, because you have to, like, go in every two days to get your blood work done. And there's, like, it's just an emotional roller coaster at as well. And so being able to, like, not rely on a wheel client and get more profits coming in, and like, being able to, like, authoritatively say, like, I can do that, or you're going to get that next week, like, manage my time, have boundaries, because, like, I got more confidence when you're not reliant on the wheel client. So it helped for like, I could just clearly say, like, I have a doctor's appointment that day, or I had to move things last minute. I'm like, Hey, I got, you know, like, it was easier to do. And one of the bigger wins i i Just remember now, like, now I'm employing mothers who you know are looking for work from home, Remote Jobs part time, and they can't find that elsewhere. And now good karma consulting is able to, like, three of my employees are working mothers from home. And that feels like, just like, I don't know, it heals my heart.

Cara Barnes 15:00

A little bit emotional thinking about it, but like that kind of heals my heart a little bit like that, I get to give that to them, that they can bring in some income in and, like, be there for their children and be there, like, for their families, while still getting some income. You know, like one of my hope I just hired, she's like, I've been a stay at home mom for three years, been trying to find a part time position that would work with my schedule and flexibility, and now I can offer that to her, you know, through these clients that I'm getting in, you know. So that's, I think, one of, like, the most, like, biggest win that I got that wasn't planned. That's, like, a, you know, I wasn't planning to hire just stay at home moms like that just worked out that way, yeah, yeah, but that you can give back, yeah,

Cara Barnes 15:45

you said that you're getting, you know, every couple days you get, you know, a referral, right, or somebody reaching out to you. And are they the right people, or is it, is it just sort of anyone, yeah. So that was the problem first, before I worked with market spade. I was just like, it seems common sense now, right? I was like, on LinkedIn, just not having the right client signaling. So now my sales process are so quick, so anytime somebody comes in refers me, or talks to me or reaches out to me, it's like a two first two call close. And so far in the last like three, four months, just recently, I have 100% close rate. It's crazy. So every time somebody I talk to they're so exactly my ideal client, and I can totally, I always go, oh, I can totally fix this problem. And I I've got you, and I confidently say that. And so they're like, following up me. Like, did you? Can you send the proposal or and if, after I said the proposal, even, like, the high amount that I'm charging. Now I'm always, like, still a little afraid to send it, but now they're like, I had to reschedule a couple things. And the CFO was like, even if we can't meet, can we, can we still push through? Like, I was like, they like, I normally, we have another call after the proposal, and they try to negotiate the scope and the pricing. But I mean, people who want to, like, jump right away and start, and I have to, like, I have the opposite problem, like, I can't start now. I have to wait until, like, these two months, so it's a faster sales process and close right now. And it's because the people who are reaching out to me or being referred to me are like, my ideal client. So, yes, ah, I love that well. So walk us through what has helped you get here, because it wasn't always easy, right? And PS, you guys, she went on a maternity leave in between all of this. So I feel like, you know, one story arc that I see is like, how you had, you know, you just like, built your business twice, in a way, because you, like, built up before Matt leave and then you came back. But anyway, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Tell us, like, what are a few of the biggest game changers that that have made the biggest difference? Yeah, this was, like, really hard to think through, because there's so many things, even at the micro level, that changed. But so before I went on maternity.

Cara Barnes 18:03

What happened that I changed? The biggest change was like, I really like, like, you say it plant the flag. Like, just decide what your niche is, what you're really good at, what you love doing. And I remember

Cara Barnes 18:17

making that decision whether or not I whether or not I felt like I was, like, qualified to do that. I was like, You know what? Just do it like, this is what I want to do. So I just try to embody what I wanted to do. Because before, I was like, Oh, I don't know if I have the skill set for that, or there's so many other people who are doing it better than me, or like, something like that, right? So I just like, No, this is what I want to do. This is what I feel like I'm passionate about. Whether or not I feel like I'm qualified. Let's put that aside and just like, plant a flag, like, this is what I'm designed to do. And I was so afraid, because I was like, well, that wouldn't, like, reduce the amount of referrals coming in, but, like, the opposite happened. So as soon as I decided that was, like, the biggest thing that changed, because that influenced everything else, it was like a trickle down effect, right? So as soon as I decided what I want to do that affected my packages, my my my selling, the the verbiage I would use on LinkedIn who was attracting, so client signaling was like the biggest thing. And I decided, if I don't like well, I'll just try for three months, and if I don't like it, I'll change it. But I think the it's like the wishy washy, like, back and forth of, like, I do this, or I do that, that was like, hurting me. So that was, like, the biggest thing, yeah, like, I remember when things started to click for you, because I think you, you came in to the community and you were like, because I think you'd come to some coaching calls and things like, weren't sort of, you know, just weren't clicking yet, or weren't sort of dialed in. And then it and then all of a sudden, you came into the community, and then you posted, like, I've gotten like, three clients in the past, like two days. And it was, it was when you stopped trying to talk to all.

Cara Barnes 20:00

People, and you really started to talk to the type of organizations that you really wanted. It was that that client signaling, it was like, just the shift. I was like, no wonder why people were sending me these random referrals. Because I was random on LinkedIn, like I was,

Leah Neaderthal 20:16

I was like, I'll do it. I'll do whatever like and well, and sometimes people don't realize, sometimes people don't realize how random they're being, until they stop being so random, right until they plant their flag and really start, like, talking about it. Masha has a great question, can you give an example of what you said no to as you dialed in your ideal client? Like, what did you leave out? Yeah, there was so many

Cara Barnes 20:40

I was trying to do like, HR in itself is like a lot, so I do HR, but there was like somewhere, like, are you gonna do you work with 100 plus clients? I was like, No, I don't like so I was just starting to weed it down more like who I wanted to work with. So it it was like both ways. It was like, ideal client first and then scope so and it just kept on narrowing, narrowing down. So I would drop things like, I don't work with, like, manufacturing companies anymore. I'm not going to go to a company that requires me to be there in person. Like, there was a lot of like, restaurants that were asking for, like, help and support. And then it got to a point where it wasn't about the the business anymore. It was about the person, so, like, is the C level or this executive open to change? And so I was tailoring my discovery questions, my type of client that I wanted to work with more specifically so, and that just happened to be like, I wanted, like an entrepreneur, a startup or a or small nonprofit person who's like, knows that HR is not their expertise, like, so I was like, looking for triggers like that, like, like, signals like that, that this person's the type of person I want to work with. So I would tailor my messaging envisioning that person was reading that right? Yeah,

Speaker 1 21:59

I love it, and writing for that person really helps. I always say that, like writing for a group of people, or writing for the Internet or writing for LinkedIn is impossible, but if you're envisioning that you're just writing to the one person, it makes it so much easier. And I think also, one thing that that I just want to tease out here is that it's a process of, like, chipping away. Yeah, it's and oftentimes you have to try it, and then you realize it's not right, you know, it's like, it you would not have had the same results if you just sat there and thought about it forever, right? But you you talk to people, you might have worked with some type of clients, or done some type of work that you're like now that I'm in it. This is not, this is not exactly it, but also getting really honest with yourself about, like, who am I best for? Who is best for me? Right? Right? It doesn't sound like these huge companies or teeny tiny companies are the right ones. Yeah. Another like example that, Masha, your question was, I kept on like, posting things on like, get compliant, and I hate doing compliance work, so I'm like, why am I posting on LinkedIn that you should get compliant as a business? Because that's like what I but I it was that's not what I wanted to do. I wanted to work on the foundation of how to get your people operating better, and that that's like a different, different line of HR, that's more on performance management and goal creating and job descriptions and recruiting. It's not on compliance. Like, yeah, sure, we do that, that there's that business still comes in. But it wasn't what I was trying to set myself as,

Cara Barnes 23:38

yeah, what else? What else is another game changer, I would say mentality. I feel like, I definitely feel more confident now

Cara Barnes 23:50

in my services and just it feels really good, like, especially when there's bumpy times when you're a consultant, there's like, sometimes it feels like feast or famine, but now I've like this, like, kind of, like, I know it's gonna work out. And it's, it sounds good, and it's like, not really the universe, whatever, but I know if I just follow the steps, if I follow through what the program is, I will get clients flowing in. And that's been the biggest game changer. Like, there's no like, desperation or despair on the side where I'm like, do I need to just close up shop? Like, because I felt that way right before I well, I started with with records paid and then I had, like, a lot of, like, positive wins that happened, but then I actually got pregnant. So what I wanted to happen? I got pregnant, and that really, like, kind of like, threw things for a loop. Because when I'm like, But now what? Now I have all these clients. I'm going to maternity it's just me. And so I had to, like, really change my business again to, like, bring in help. And so I hired my first person. We created a maternity leave plan, like, and I've actually, now I'm able to scale so, like, that's the second biggest game changer.

Cara Barnes 25:00

Is like, first first win was like, I found my niche client who I wanted to work with. My second biggest win was like, now I can scale and actually take on more clients because I've built a structure to have people help me underneath and and, like, actually invoice them at my large my higher rate. Before I was like, discounting and reducing my fee, and now I can afford to, like, have help, to be able to, like, delegate some of those tasks, and I could focus on bringing more business. Because I was a that was a fear of mine. I was like, I don't have time to bring on another client, but I need more money, so I couldn't figure that out. So, like, now I'm like, Okay, I'm creating this, like, my own foundation to scale. Which would I help other startups and companies do? But I wasn't doing for myself. Now I'm actually doing for my own company. So that's like the second biggest win. I feel that's huge. Yeah, I hear this from a lot of women, because they, you know, they're in this transition point, but they're kind of stuck because they they want to take on more work, they want to bring on somebody. They don't have the work yet, and they are still, you know, not in control of their own business development, right? But once you like, know how to bring in business, then you know how to give your employees the work, right? It's like, it's, you can sort of unstuck yourself from, that's not a word, but you know, you consider, get yourself out, dislodge yourself from that, from that place. Yeah, I mean, there's so much work you have to do through smart gets paid that I remember feeling like, oh, this is taking so much of my time. But it was like, good work that I needed to do. And it's like, you know, the painkiller statement, like truly understanding what my clients need and what their challenges were. There was the proposal email or, like, even just, like, figure out the values of my my my proposals. Like I was getting problems with clients in the beginning, where I was trying to charge high rate, but I couldn't, like, vocalize and verbalize why I'm charging the higher rate, if that makes sense. So like the racetrack and the work of doing those packages and like value packing those help justify it. So there's a lot of like HR work that is, like, called the invisible work, I had to, like, really be captain obvious to say, Hey, I completed these things for you, or my team complete these things for you. And the value of that is this, like, really kind of vocalizing that I learned that through smart gets paid. I never that before. I was always like, a hard worker, like, like, if I work hard and then get things done, then they'll see how good I am and how valuable I am. And that was, like, such a poor mentality. And that's a biggest win, too. That's changed since working with Leah. It's like, no, you gotta be like, you might think it's obvious, but they don't. They only see, like, why am I paying her this amount of money? Like, it's made my business better, because now I'm like, this is the buy you're getting. Like, I I constantly say that, even during meetings. Now, where they go, can you do that? Oh, yes, let me take that off your plate, because that will allow you to do this. Like, I even like, start talking like that now during my one on one check ins with my clients, so that's helped. Yeah, I mean, constantly putting the value front and center, I think is so it's such a good muscle to build, because we have to remember that like, it's kind of like what you said, the work to justify the sale isn't over when the sale happens, right? And, and we are constantly teaching people how to think about us, how to think about our value. And I love that you just said, Captain Obvious. Yeah, I say that all the time, right? It's like, Captain Obvious. If you want them to know something, you have to make them know it, right? It's you can't take for granted that they'll just Intuit, you know, the value that you provide, yeah, like I was afraid to say, like, I felt like I was like, like, being cocky. Or it was like, it like, I was afraid to, like, boast myself, or, like, talk about myself to them. But I was like, why you need to they need to know. Yeah,

Leah Neaderthal 28:57

um, is there anything else that you feel like made the biggest difference for you.

Cara Barnes 29:03

I would also say it's how I communicate with CEOs and C levels. I think kind of some of the questions where I was now putting myself as a strategic advisor, instead of like the doer. I think that's the biggest win, too. And now because I've, because I've hired employees there to doers, and so I'm on, when I'm on the calls with the CEOs or CFOs. I have my team with me, and I'm the strategic giving advice to them, and they, they see me as a thought leader, whereas before, it was just me and

Cara Barnes 29:43

the CEO, and they would tell me what to do, and I would just kind of go, Okay, I'll do that, and never challenge them or say, like, actually, I don't think that's the right decision, you know, kind of thing and that, I don't know if I'm repeating myself, but I feel like that was such a game changer for me, for my business of the.

Cara Barnes 30:00

Valuing my time and my expertise and knowing that I'm not your employee. I have my own business, and, yeah, that's, I think, my biggest and knowing, and also make big win too, is like, now it's now I can see my future where before I was like, How can I get out of this rat race? And feeling lost and feeling like, this is not what I wanted, and like, I don't know how to get there. Like, now I like, there's, don't get me wrong, there's still so much growth to do, and there's still, like, there's new challenges, and there's new things that I need to still figure out. But I could see end game. I can see, like, steps I need to take to get to where I want to be I want to take my business, and it's like, actionable steps that it not easy, but like, attainable. Like, it's not a pie in the sky dream. It's not like, something like, yeah, sure, whatever, and that, no, like, if that's my goal, there's I can reach that if I follow these steps, like, if I can see client signal, if I continue to, like, create value and like, talk about my value, I'm going to hit that number, and I'm going to like, create this environment for me. And like, going back to is like, Oh, another big win. So there's so many wins, but one of those two is like, I decide and create my my workload, my schedule. I decide how my business goes. Like, make it so. Like, make it so is like, such a like, I say that all the time now, make it so, because before, I was like, Oh, I don't know. I don't think they're gonna be okay us not being able to work on Fridays because I decided that, like, we're not taking meetings on Fridays anymore, like, as a company. Yeah, I was like, Oh, I don't know if they're going to be okay with that. It's like, well, no, I'm going to make it. So this is, this is what the boundary is, right?

Leah Neaderthal 31:47

Seriously, if there's something I want every person to walk away with, it's, I think it's so it's such a big shift to give yourself permission. Yeah, I want to just a couple more, a few more a few more questions, and then I want to open it up to you guys, so start thinking about what questions you'd like to ask. Kara, yeah, just fill in the blank for me, because I'm always curious. I almost didn't work with you, or I almost, I almost didn't join the program, because why?

Cara Barnes 32:17

At the time, I felt like the money or the payment was a lot, I remember, and I was and I was successful. Like, I was like, I was making money. So I was like, Do I really need this? Is this something I really need? That was, like, the biggest thing. And then what happened? I mean, then, I mean, you have you earned back your can you earn back your payment? So that first month that I started, I lost my whale client, and I was really screwed. I forgot to tell you this, but I was really screwed. I was like, Oh, the worst fear I had actually happened. And thank goodness I signed up beforehand, like, I think a month before the client gave me their 30 days. So I had 60 days. And because we were already working for that month, I was already starting to build my pipeline and get my current signaling. And so I was able to bounce back like I didn't even skip a month like I did. I was never in the red because we were already working towards it. And I ended up gaining like, two more clients after that. Well, client that paid the same amount, but less on like the workload. So not only did I work less. I got paid more. And I basically paid for, like, all of Spark gets paid in that one in the first three months for the entire year. So it paid for itself for that. And I was like,

Cara Barnes 33:33

good thing. I said yes, because what if, like, what if I lost a whale client even more would have been able to afford you after the fact. So, like, it was, like,

Cara Barnes 33:42

perfect timing for me that I signed up and and I remember, like, Leah, this is what you said on the call when I was hesitant about the number, and you're like,

Cara Barnes 33:55

like, you know, why don't you think about it? And like, let's let's schedule, let's talk next week. Like you gave me a week, but then you still put something, but time on the calendar for the following week. Yeah, book a call from a call, dude. Yeah. And then you also said something that challenged me. You're like, Well, why are you meeting with me? Because I was like, I'm fine. I'm like, I was I had a sales background, so I'm like, I'm really good in sales, so I don't really need sales help or whatever. And you're like, but why? Why did you take this call with me then? And I remember, like, because I do have a problem. Like, I like, there are challenges, but like, I don't know why. I was like, you know, I was starting to, like, backtrack, like, maybe I don't need this, you know, maybe I don't need your help, or whatever. But that one question, I was like, Yeah, I need this. So there's a couple things that made me decide to move forward

Leah Neaderthal 34:45

the first two months. Oh my gosh. Nothing about it now. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I know. I know. And you guys, that's a great question for that anybody can ask, right when they're talking, when you're talking.

Leah Neaderthal 35:00

Talking to a potential client, and it sounds like, you know, they're, they're like, Well, we already have this, and we already have that, and we're already doing this, or whatever, you know, say, like, great, if you already have that. Why? Why do you need me

Cara Barnes 35:12

and let them, let them use them. Now for other sales calls, it's, and it's not, you know, it's not trying to be like, provocative. It's more just like, why are we talking? Oh, you weren't worried about it at all. You were like, curious, okay, so why did you, like, if everything's okay in your role, why'd you take this call, you know? And it was, it was, like, a really good question, and that I actually use that question now, like, oh, we have that, we have that covered. And I always say it sounds, that sounds great. So maybe, maybe we're like, maybe, like, you don't really need my services, you know, like, I actually they like, like, make them question. I was like, oh, maybe, you know, like, like, I can refer you to something else, you know, we could think of something else, maybe that we're not, like, in the right space or whatever. And, no, no, I need, I need you. It's just, it's a thought provoking question. Thought provoking moment, yeah, and then Julia said, too, thank you, Julia. But I, I decided to, like, from day one, I'm gonna go all in and like, I needed to dedicate time to do the work. And it's hard work. I'm not gonna lie. Leah, it's tough. The first three months of like, Spark gets paid, I was like, it was so challenging to, like, decide my painkiller statement to this, to write down what exactly my value was and write it down paper. But like, what was great is like the community was, like, in it with me, and they were also feeling like the same, but I think it's like you have to go through it, like you have to go through to get to the other side, like, you have to kind of get in the weeds of it, and, like, put the work in to to figure out and find out, and just like, knowing that's never going to be perfect. And just like, just deciding, yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, what, what you think is in the way is probably the way, right, yeah.

Cara Barnes 37:00

So, so what would you say to someone who's in the position that you were back then? I mean, what? What advice would you give her? Trust the process. I would say, if you do the work here and like, honestly, take a look into seeing what you're offering and what you like, I would say, Yeah, trust the process and also trust yourself. I think that's the biggest thing, is you're the expert, and know that you are and own it

Cara Barnes 37:32

and believe in what you do and what makes you different.

Cara Barnes 37:36

Because it's like, really easy to like, there's so many other CMOS, there's so many other fashion HR, just, they're doing this or doing that, and they're like, you're looking at others, like, I would say, do, like the internal work. I think that's the biggest thing for me. Was like, the biggest that had made the difference. Yeah, every aspect of my company

Leah Neaderthal 37:56

so important. Yeah. Thank you so much for that.

Cara Barnes 38:00

I want to open it up to you. What questions do you have for Cara or what did she say that that's getting getting you thinking? Katie asks, is the price for each package pretty consistent across clients or customized per client? So it's three packages, and I what I learned that market spade is the easy to say yes is always option one, because I'm like, I'm never leaving this without some kind of win, like I'm going to get a project out of them. So it the option was the easiest to say, yes, one

Cara Barnes 38:33

and option two and three kind of changes, but they're pretty consistent. Now, where before? That's why it took me so long to make proposals. I was like, making it up and changing my service or whatever. Now it's like, consistently, I know what I'm doing. That took a lot of work to get this point. It's like, trial and error. You're like, in the beginning, you take on any client work you can. And then I started to build I was like, Oh, this is what is what I'm seeing is like, a need. And that kind of helped tailor my messaging on LinkedIn too. So yeah, it's fairly consistent across all my clients. Now it wasn't before, can I ask a follow up question on that? Because, you know, some, a lot of people come to me and they're like, Well, I always do custom work, and it's like a point of pride. And every, you know, every client is different, and blah, blah, blah, right? Did you ever worry that clients wouldn't say yes, if you had a more programmatic or, or, you know, repeatable way of doing things? Yeah, I think that's why the easy to say is one option was my way of like, making it more flexible. So, like, the way I because there was, like a there was a dream project that I always want to do for every client. And I've noticed, I've started to learn that they say they want one thing, but I really want to focus on this is what everything really mean. So that's my easy to say, yes, is like that first one. And when you're saying, just as a quick heads up, sorry to interrupt you, but that you.

Cara Barnes 40:00

Easy to say yes, is what we call the Etsy offer, right? If you haven't gotten there yet in the content. So Etsy is stands for easy to say, yes, yeah, yeah, I would say I did. When I was first testing it out, like as soon when I came back from maternity, I was in a in a scary place a little bit, because I was testing things out a little bit, and I got three no's in a row of like, oh, maybe I'm pricing too high. Maybe it's whatever. And unfortunately, that's just part of the game of like, how your finger is out, you know, like, what works. And the problem too, is I wasn't talking about price in the beginning and the first call because I didn't know, because I was making up the proposal and then customizing it so much that I didn't know what the work cost was going to be, and so I was spending a lot of work on the back end trying to figure the proposal, like, well, how much would this cost? So I was like, you know, I'm gonna flip it. I'm gonna say,

Cara Barnes 40:53

this is the work I want to do. This is the hub cost it's gonna take. And then I'll talk about it straight with the client on the first call, and then say, and then be like, Oh, we don't need that much. That's where I go. Okay, what are you really looking to spend? And then I create a package around their number. And that was, that was the biggest game chamber is like, you just have to say the price on the first call. And I think that's why I'm getting, like, that's why I have 100% close right now, because I'm already seeing the price beforehand. See, there's so many wins, there's so many things I didn't do before that it's different now. Yeah, Stephanie asks, How long did it take running your business and doing different projects to land these land on these three packages? Can you just clarify that a bit? So I would, I've already been working on my business for like, a year and a half before I worked with Leah, and then it was, like the first three months where I decided to do the three packages, because it was basically the proposal. And then through this process, being on maternity and coming back in the last I guess, I don't hold my son six months, so, like last six months, I've really kind of honed it in, like, it's really tight now, and that just happened in the last six months. I feel like I was able to create packages through spark gets paid and, like, get a general idea, and then I pushed it out. So, like, originally I was, I was like, Maybe I do trainings. That was, like, a package that was made, been thinking about, and I decided that's not for me, and I dropped it, and it was, you know, things like that, and I put that proposal out, and it was declined. So, like, it is trial and error, but you have to, like, yeah, you already have to have the packages in mind already,

Leah Neaderthal 42:33

before you test it out. Yeah. Cara, can you tell the story of when somebody came to you who you had admired in the space. Oh yeah,

Cara Barnes 42:44

that was recently too.

Cara Barnes 42:46

She had been in business for, I think, 15 years now, and I had worked with her with a different client, and I looked up to her so much, I felt like, Oh my goodness. Like she has her ish together, like everything in their business, she had like 30 employees, like, everything about her, I felt like was what I wanted encompass to being. And she actually, through client segment and LinkedIn, reached out to me for help with her own business. And I, yeah, I didn't. I was like, what? Like, you're gonna ask me for help. You're like, who I want to

Cara Barnes 43:25

be. And, yeah, that was a really, it was a crazy moment. I was like, the client signaling is working. So,

Leah Neaderthal 43:34

yeah,

Cara Barnes 43:36

it's amazing. I know what Stephanie says to like, another reason to fill your pipeline, yeah, like to test that. I felt like I had room to test because I was getting the pipe coming in and then flushing it out, and like I was getting stronger in my sales prospect calls and saying the number because I didn't need them, is changing the like desperation part. Like, it really affects, like, negotiation and sales, if you if you're desperate for the deal. So, yeah, like, now I'm, like, even though I'm so busy right now, like, it's like a priority for me to continue to prospect, yeah, and, you know, it's like, the thing I posted in the community day, there is no magical place where that stops, right? Because marketing your business is always part of building a business or running a business. Okay? Lisa asks, how big do you want to be? It's not necessarily, like scale size of like, how many employees I don't really care about that I want to be able to afford, like, the lifestyle that I have, which means, like, go on a random weekend, vacation, take my son to swim school and afford that enough to think about that, and you know that's that's what drives me. Yeah, you

Leah Neaderthal 44:51

guys, if you have any other questions for Cara, please post them in the in the community car. Thank you again for sharing your journey for all.

Cara Barnes 45:00

Worked. What was difficult, what was easy, what we can learn from you is so valuable. So thank you for being here. Thank you. Thanks so much everybody.

Leah Neaderthal 45:12

All right, I love that conversation with Kara, and if Kara said anything that spoke to you, please reach out to her and let her know and just say thank you.

Leah Neaderthal 45:20

So we've been talking about going from having one whale client and being completely reliant on them to having multiple clients so that your business is more secure, and as a business owner, you're not beholden to any one client. And of course, so that you know if the worst case scenario does happen and that whale client goes away, then you'll still be okay. And I have to say, the scenario that Kara found herself in that's actually really common. It's a very easy situation to fall into, especially when you're early in your business, because, I mean, you do enough business development to get things in the door, you tend to get your first, you know, one to two clients, and then you sort of stop doing marketing, and then because of the way you're working with clients. And then, of course, remember, you were in corporate like five minutes ago, so you still have a bit of that, you know, mindset, and you end up, like, giving them your all. And of course, you stop doing marketing because you can't take on any clients anyway, because they're taking all of your time. I mean, like I said, it's a really easy trap to fall into, but it's also one that's really important to get out of. I mean, listen, I fell into that trap too early in my business. I started working with a dear friend of mine as her General Manager. It was a contract role, and I was helping run her consulting and speaking business, and I was essentially taking everything that I had done in my own businesses and the consulting that we had been doing and how I had made the trains run, and I implemented it in her business. And we doubled her business in the first year, and then we doubled again in the second year. And it was great. I was working with a close friend, doing work that I loved, and I was able to, you know, cover my expenses and fund my life. And it was great until things changed. It was around November of our second year, and my friend told me that due to some circumstances, she wouldn't be able to pay me the same as the previous year, and actually she could only pay me about 75% of what she paid me before. And I mean, I was stuck. I wanted to keep doing the work and working with her, but I couldn't live on 75% less. I mean, not in DC, where I was living at the time. And of course, I didn't have anything else lined up, because I'd been pretty comfortable working with her, but I had to do something. I mean, I had to scramble to make up that income. So I reached out to a bunch of people I knew who were involved in, you know, small businesses and startups, and I offered to help with sales coaching, and a few folks did take me up on it. And so soon I had my first sales coaching clients. Those first sales coaching clients became more clients, which became my first group program. And you know, the rest, as they say, is history. So you could say that this business, you know, the business that became smart, gets paid, grew directly out of me having one whale client. So I get it. And when I think about whale clients, what I really want to leave you with is this, you know, as I mentioned, being reliant on a whale client is really common when you're early in your business. You may have heard me talk about two phases of running a consulting business, the startup phase and the messy middle. In the startup phase, you're getting what we call the first wave of clients, you know, people who knew you from before, or people who are referring you. And the startup phase lasts about, you know, 18 months to two years. The messy middle is after those two years, when that first wave of clients starts to slow down, or you're, you know, well aware that it could slow down, and that's when smart women consultants realize they need a strategy to get clients. So when you're in this startup phase, you're really taking any client you can get, and that's exactly what I would tell you to do. And so if you're in the startup phase of your business and you're reliant on a whale client, I say that's okay, you know, get some early stability and build your experience and build your knowledge and really the confidence that what you're doing has value outside of a corporate environment. But as you move from the startup phase to the messy middle, that's when you should really be asking yourself, Am I still relying on that one whale client? Because if you've been in business for a while, and you're relying on a whale client, or a couple whale clients, and you're not doing business development, and you know, forget marketing, you don't even have room to take on any clients anyway, and you're sort of beholden to the whale clients, then you don't really have a business. You have a job, because a job is where somebody else dictates your time, and a business is where you dictate your time. So you may want to ask like, Do you have a business?

Leah Neaderthal 50:00

Is, or do you have a job? And if the answer is the latter, then it's good to catch that now so you can change it and really run a business and be in charge of your time, and, of course, make a whole lot more money. And you can do that by focusing on a few things. First, identify who you really want to work with, the clients that are the best for you. Second, build a healthy pipeline, so you can start to choose the clients you want, and you don't have to take just any client. Third, structure your pricing around value, so it's not based on your time or a block of hours or deliverables. And fourth, set healthy boundaries with your clients. Boundaries aren't just about when you're working together with a client, you actually start to set healthy boundaries from the very first interaction you know, and throughout the sales process, through your pricing and then into your working relationship. So make sure you're teaching your client how to treat you. So as you heard, transforming from being reliant on one whale client to having a diverse client base, it is possible. It takes learning the skills and developing a system to get the clients that will create this shift. And when you can do that, you can have a business, not a job, a business, a business that you love. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai